Reply to Joe Montaldo from Kathleen Marden
August 26, 2009
First, I want to thank you for sending your X-Conference lecture to me along with a request for my opinion. I apologize for the long delay but I’m working on a new book, have been doing a lot of travelling and have been recovering from the illness I acquired during my travels. I will address your statements individually. (((((Ms Marden, Please understand, as we have stated to you many times, we DO believe Betty and Barney Hill were Abductees. We do however feel the facts in this case have not been questioned correctly. ALL Milab abductees are first Alien abductees. That is the point of the military abducting these people. We have to consider when this story was made public there was no knowledge that the military might be abducting people in the matter of Milab abductions. If we do not use knowledge that has been gathered through the years by researchers and Contactees to farther understand this case, we do a disservice to the Hills as well as to the Contactees. Again, we are not saying the Hills were never abducted by aliens. We are suggesting that there might be much more to this story then anyone was able to understand given the knowledge of abducts at the time it happens.))))))))
1.You stated that Barney described a red headed, white skinned Irishman and added that most contactees say he’s a hybrid and have seen him. ((( ((while a red headed “Doctor” has been reported by many abductees, not “most”, he is never involved with the work of flying the craft nor has he ever been reported to be wearing any uniform, so these two incidences are only the same in the fact that this person is redheaded))))) On October 21, 1961, Barney told NICAP’s Walter Webb “He referred to one of them looking over his shoulder and grinning and to the leader’s expressionless face”. ((((((((This is in the book “Captured” page 52….”one fellow operating a lever who, Mr. Hill claims, looked over his shoulder and smiled……The “leader” at the window held a special attraction for the witness (Barney) and frightened him terribly.”)))))) In deep hypnotic regression Barney stated the following: Barney Hill: It's still there. If I let my binoculars fall and dangle from my neck, and then start over again, maybe it won't be there. But it is. Why! What to they want? (((((((((Interesting that Barney uses the word “they” and does not say “what are these things))))))) (Exclaims) what do they want? One person (((((((again, “one person” not “Thing or alien))))) looks friendly. He's friendly looking and he's looking at me over his right shoulder. And he's smiling.
Dr. Simon: Could you see him clearly?
Barney Hill: Yes.
Dr Simon: What is his face like? What does he make you think of?
Barney Hill: It’s round. (((((((((If they were Grays, as you say later, a round face does not fit the features reported by contactees)))))))))) I think of a red-headed Irishman. I don't know why. (((((((this is what Barney says he is seeing))))) Oh, I think I know why. (((((((((the following is what he “thinks” it means NOT what he is seeing))))) Because Irish are usually hostile to Negroes, and when I see a friendly Irish person, I react to it by thinking I will be friendly. I think this one that is looking over his shoulder is friendly.
Dr. Simon: You say looking over his shoulder. Was he facing away from you?
Barney Hill: Yes. He was facing a wall.
Dr. Simon: You saw him through this window. Or you said it was a row of windows.
Barney Hill: It was row of windows…..There is a huge row of windows only divided by struts or structures that prevented it from being one solid window. Or, then it would have been one solid window. And the evil face on the ……looks like a German Nazi (((((((((The question here is why didn’t they all look alike? Reports of alien abduction are of figures with the same features, Abductees speak of “the aliens” not individuals looking and acting differently))))))) . He is a Nazi. (Hypnotic thinking here; Not literal.) ((((((((((Hypnotic thinking, what do you mean by this? Hypnosis is used to find the truth of a situation, or so we are told in the Hill Abduction case. You can not use, “Hypnotic thinking” to change the meaning of a statement if later you want to use what is said under hypnosis as the truth to prove a point. It must be one way or the other or then you are just using the term “hypnotic thinking” to bend what is said to match the point you are trying to make. So, are you stating that anything said under hypnosis is not literal or that it is to be believed? If hypnotic thinking is indeed a factor, all Taped regressions must be taken out of this story))))))))) On 10/21/61, Walter Webb recorded the following information during his interview with Barney: “The figures reminded the observer of the cold precision of German officers; they moved smoothly and efficiently and showed no emotion except for one fellow operating a lever ((((((((if only the one redheaded Irishman showed emotion, what made the German leader stand out to Barney?))))) Who, Mr. Hill claims, looked over his shoulder and smiled.”
Dr. Simon: He is a Nazi. Did he have on a uniform?
Barney Hill: Yes.
Dr. Simon: What kind of uniform? (((((Black uniforms or military uniforms are mentioned in 50% of military abductions)))))
Barney: Black. He had a black scarf around his neck dangling over his left shoulder ((((((This is the only time we have ever heard of a scarf being worn by the abductors, what next a purse??))))))
Dr. Simon: You pointed it out as if it were on you.
Barney Hill: I never noticed that. (Barney had a conscious, continuous memory of observing the alien creature on the craft. He reported it to family members when he returned to his home, shortly after September 20, 1961, and to NICAP Investigator, Walter Webb the following month. However, he had not previously noticed the scarf around the creature’s neck.) (((((((((In fact, in “Captured” on page 35 you mention,,, ”Barney refused to go (outside) saying he was trying to forget what happened. According to your book, Betty was doing all the talking.)))))))
Dr. Simon: He's got a black scarf on you think. How could you see these figures so clearly at that distance?
Barney Hill: I was looking at him with binoculars.
Dr. Simon: Oh. (Pause) Did they have faces like other people? You say that one reminded you of a red headed Irishman.
Barney Hill: His eyes were slanted. (Innocent wonder) I see it, so his eyes are slanted…. (In a haunted tone of voice) His eyes were slanted. It was not like a Chinese. Oh. I, I feel like a rabbit. I feel like a rabbit. (fearful) ((((((((Barney did not say any other features of this man changed in his view. We need to remember that this session toke place 28 months after the abduction, after Barney had heard what he “should have been seeing” if this were an alien abduction))))))
As you can see, Joe, Dr. Simon asked Barney “What does he make you think of?” Not what does he look like? He thinks of a red headed Irishman because he appears to be smiling as he looks over his shoulder, and as we all know, the Irish are usually prejudice. Barney married into an Irish family, as Betty’s father (my grandfather) was of Irish descent. Of course, my Irish family was friendly. He thinks this one is friendly but then he notices that his eyes are slanted. Barney did not describe the skin color as white. In a later hypnotic regression ((((((( it is a well proven point that under hypnosis a person can lie to give the Hypnotist the answer the subject thinks he is wanting to hear, could this be why the story changed in ‘ later’ hypnotic regressions? )))))))) Barney described the skin color as gray. They all had gray skin.
2.You stated they could not recall what hotel they stayed in. This statement is incorrect but not for the reason you imply. Read the following quote:
Betty and Barney had clear detailed memories of their trip through Canada. On September 18, they stayed at a motel about 112 miles from Montreal in the Thousand Islands area. Barney didn’t recall the name of the hotel because it was dark when they arrived there and he didn’t notice the name of the motel. (((((((However it was morning when they checked out. Motels generally have a sign out front, especially in rural areas where one wouldn’t expect to see a motel. There obviously was some indication that this was a motel, how else would the Hills have known it was the night before in the dark? If Barney had driven 112 miles from Montreal would he not have notice a sign upon entering this small town? If not in the darkness of the night, surely in the light of morning? And when do you start off driving without knowing where you are? Does not sound like the detailed oriented person you say Barney was.)))))) Dr. Simon I want you to go back now to your vacation in 1961 where you went to Montreal. Is that right?
Barney Hill: Yes.
Dr. Simon: Tell me in full detail all of your experiences, all of your thoughts, and all of your feelings beginning at the time when you left your hotel; were you in Montreal?
Barney Hill: We did not stay in Montreal. We stayed in a motel in another city.
Dr. Simon: Yes, where did you stay?
Barney Hill: I can't seem to remember. Dr. Simon: It was near Montreal (((((at 50 mph driving, would 112 miles seem “near”))))
Barney Hill: It was approximately 112 miles from Montreal.
Dr. Simon: Is there any reason why you can't remember it?
Barney Hill: We arrived at night and I did not notice any name at the motel. (((((((Again, no sign on the motel. no receipt for payment, no noticeable sign in the morning?))))
Dr. Simon: I see. Do you know what the city was?
Barney Hill: It was not a city. It was out in the country. We had been driving from Niagara Falls, Canada. (((((In the country, at night, with out a sign out front how did they even notice this motel))))
Dr. Simon: Keep right on. Tell me about your arrival there--everything that you remember. And you will remember everything.
Barney Hill: We arrived in this small area. We did not see any town marks and my car was making a lot of noise. It was Betty's car that we were driving. I was driving the car. We stopped at a service station and they told me the car had not been properly greased. So, they greased the car and this eliminated this noise that the car was making. We then decide we could not continue to Montreal, and that we should look for a place to stay over night. And that's when I saw this motel, and did not pay any attention to the name.
3.You said that Barney recalled talking to two policemen but Betty could not recall talking to any policemen. (((((I agree here, one French speaking garage attendant and one policeman that spoke halting English, Betty just mentioned “a man”)))))))) Barney actually stated that he talked to a man at a service station who spoke French and to one policeman. Betty referred to him as a man, not a policeman. My purpose in writing this information was to point out the difference in Barney’s and Betty’s descriptive detail. Barney was much more detail oriented and precise in his language. (((((((((and yet you do not find it strange that this detail oriented and precise man did not notice the name of the motel he spent a night at nor the name of the small town he passed thru))))) Also, on two occasions—once in Montreal and once during their first observational stop at Mt. Cleveland their sequential order was slightly out of sync. This is because Barney was much more exacting than Betty. It reflects a difference in their learning styles, not their experiences. 4.You stated they lost a whole day in Canada. This is incorrect. They had clear, detailed memories of their day in Montreal and both described seeing the same sites only in different words and with different private thoughts. The also described their drive between Montreal and Coaticook and then down through NH. Their only missing time occurred after the first set of code-like beeping/buzzing sounds on the trunk of their vehicle in the area of Lincoln/North Woodstock. Betty’s memory extended a little further than Barney’s ((((((((In “Captured” page 54 Betty wrote in her unpublished diary….”They (Hohmann and Jackson) stimulated our thinking and we were able to pinpoint specific areas at certain times” How much of Betty’s extended memories were the result of “stimulated” thinking can never be answered))))) 5.You said they were pulled over to the side of the road and flagged down. Barney was forced to turn down Mill Brook Road and stated, “I don’t know why I had to make that turn”. Then he and Betty described seeing men in the road who divided into two groups of three. They had “spindly legs” and “were not very big men”. In another session he stated that he was being flagged down because their hands were in a downward position. He did not mention being pulled over to the side of the road.
(((Captured” page 112-113…”Suddenly she noticed men standing in the highway” the details of how they were stopped differ in “The Interrupted Journey” where Barney believes there may be a wreck or road construction. And after so long a time it would be up to the listener to decide. What I find interesting is the fact that you did not question the statement that aliens don’t drag abductees thru the woods, scuffing their shoes. We have reports of floating, even being transported, dragged while being held under the arms seems very human doesn’t it)))))))))))
6.You said they described being in a hospital room. Barney’s description of a hospital room was of the one at the Mercy Douglas Hospital. On the craft, he was in a wedge shaped room with the point cut off and a pale blue light glowed through the walls and ceiling. (See p. 146 in The Interrupted Journey for his sketch.) Barney’s account is as follows:
Dr. Simon: Yes, this won't trouble you now. You can go on now. You can tell me.
Barney Hill: I open my eyes.
Dr. Simon: You opened your eyes?
Barney Hill: And I closed them.
Dr. Simon: What did you see?
Barney Hill: I saw a hospital ward, a hospital operating room and it was pale blue…sky blue, and I closed my eyes.
Dr. Simon: Do you remember the operating room when you had your tonsils out?
Barney Hill: It was in the Mercy Douglas Hospital and I was in there because they thought I had appendicitis, and I stayed there for thirteen or fourteen….thirteen days. And I used to walk down the corridor and peek in the operating room, and I thought of that. It wasn't when I had my tonsils out.
Dr. Simon: Was that operating room blue?
Barney Hill: No. It was bright lights.
Dr. Simon: Bright lights?
Barney Hill: Bright lights like a bulb, but this room was not like that. ((((( “this room was “like that” never saying it was the same room as the one in his memory)))))) It was spotless. I thought of everything being so clean, and I closed my eyes.
Dr. Simon: Did you feel you were going to be operated on?
Barney Hill: No. (((((((He realized this room was not the operating room of his memory but a different place))))
Betty did not describe a hospital room and neither Betty nor Barney described tile floors. Barney did not mention a chair in his room, only a table. That doesn’t mean the absence of a chair, only that he didn’t notice one when he opened his eyes. Betty described the chair as follows:
Betty: And they came in the door and in one corner there's a stool…..a white……Is it white? I don't know if it's white or chrome. There's a stool and the………..the……stool, and they put me on the stool. I sit on the stool and I have a light blue dress on and they push up the sleeve of my dress and they look at my arm here……..They both look at my arm. They turn my arm over and they look at it one here…….and they have a machine……I don't know what it is. And they bring the machine over and they put it………..I don't know what kind of machine. It's something like a microscope, only a microscope with a big lens. And they put a……a…..I don't know. I had an idea they were taking a picture of my skin. And they both looked through this machine here and here, and then they were talk………I don't know……..I couldn't understand what they were saying. And then they took a something like a letter opener, only it wasn't. They scraped my arm here…they scraped and they looked like little ………You know how your skin gets dry and flaky sometimes like little particles of skin?………
As you can see, she doesn’t know if it’s white or chrome colored, but you said they sat in metallic chairs. This is an incorrect statement. I cannot find a description of tile floors in any of the Hills’ material. Yet you stated they described tile floors.
I disagree with your statement that the Greys will not take skin samples. ((((((Abductees describe “scoop marks” but not a scraping of the top layer of skin.)))))))) Many abductees describe skin samples being taken, particularly in the early abductions. Perhaps they wanted to examine the mites that live on human skin, or perhaps it was for other reasons. We now suspect that the dense biological membrane implants are coated with originates in the outer layers of epidermis. Many abductees have found skin missing from their upper backs and necks. There is no logical reason to conclude that humans will take skin samples but extraterrestrial beings won’t. ((((((((((In “Captured” page 124 you state….”This description of Betty’s medical examination closely parallels her dream material. It is interesting to note that she revealed to Dr Simon that her eyes were closed during much of the exam. She captured only fleeting glimpses of the procedures that were taking place. This information leads one to speculate whether or not Betty was actually filling in the visual gaps with dream material…..Additionally, during this part of the hypnosis, her speech was rapid and facile, further suggesting that she was substituting familiar dream material, instead of re-experiencing the traumatic exam. You also later mention what you call “cognitive dissonance”. You stated about Betty….”She frequently injected dream material into her hypnotic recall, but when the hypnosis was over, her memories of the event were quite different from what she reported. This is what I mean by cognitive dissonance. It is quite common” (your words) Are we to believe what Betty said under hypnosis or not? Or, as you seem to suggest, believe what fits into this story and disbelieve whatever doesn’t fit into it?))))))))
7.You stated that the star map rolled up in a drawer and was not a hologram. (((((((Captured” page 130….However, the dream recall is not nearly as rich with detail as the hypnotic recall ,which suggests that she might have confabulated to add more detail to her account,” “page 131…”Then he rolled the map up and put it back in the space in the wall and closed it up”))))))))) Betty’s dream sequence, written in November 1961, refers to a map that rolls down like a window shade. This differs from her description during hypnotic regression. And her description during hypnotic regression differs from her recall of the event. It is possible to make a statement under hypnosis that seems probable within ones current scientific understanding, but to recall something entirely different outside the range of technological development. Also, hypnosis opens up memories for much more than individuals report to the hypnotist, (((((((but as you said earlier could be part of Betty’s dream recall)))) just as we omit much of the detailed information in an event when we report it to someone else. Betty experienced a bit of cognitive dissonance but finally described the map as appearing like a 2’x 3’ aquarium in her letters to Marjorie Fish .(((((((But never mentions this in hypnosis or in dream recall))))))) In other words, it was three dimensional.
Betty stated in her hypnosis session: “And he went over across the room to the head of the table and he did something. He opened up, it wasn't like a drawer. He did something and the metal of the wall...There was an opening and he pulled out a map and he asked me had I ever seen a map like this before, and I walked across the room and I leaned against the table, and I looked at it…. Then he put the map…..the map rolled up and he put it back in the space in the wall and closed it.” She frequently injected dream material into her hypnotic recall, but when the hypnosis was over her memories of the event were quite different from what she reported. ((((((((The question still being what to believe, the hypnosis recall or her waking memories or her dreams?)))) This is what I mean by cognitive dissonance. It is quite common. (((((( ((((If cognitive dissonance is common in hypnosis, and indeed dream material can overlap what a person is seeing under hypnosis, can we believe anything that is said under hypnosis? From “”Captured” page 49….”Within a few days, Betty began to experience a series of disturbing nightmares about the event.” Could the person not be relating a dream? If that is the case, all hypnosis related material used in this case needs to be deleted from the details or at the very least strongly questioned. Again, we can not be expected to “believe” some things said under hypnosis and not others, this is a bending of the facts to fit the story. In that case maybe we should stick to what Barney said while NOT under hypnosis…A redheaded Irishman and a Germany looking fellow, dressed in shiny black uniforms and wearing duckbilled caps and a scarf thrown over his shoulder.))))))
8.You stated that the guy who brought this to the public was Air Force CIA. This is incorrect. John Luttrell, a reporter for the Boston Traveler, brought the story to the public on October 25, 1965. (See Captured! Chapter 18) The retired Air Force CIA operative was Barney’s friend Jim MacDonald. He was present when Hohmann and Jackson interviewed the Hills on November 25, 1961. The interviews were confidential and have never been made part of the public record. Furthermore, they were not in Betty’s files. I’d like to know where they are.
(((((((In “Captured” on page 56 I think you indicated Mac Donald’s involvement, perhaps you could reread it. We are aware of Lutterrell part in this, however, it is noted in “Captured” that the Hill had told their experience before in church groups etc.
9.You stated that the first hypnotist didn’t want to re-hypnotize them. This is incorrect. Dr. Benjamin Simon was their first hypnotist. They had consulted with Ben Swett and a psychiatrist at Balpate but were not hypnotized by either of them.
((((((((” According to “Captured” page 61…On March 12, 1962 Betty and Barney wrote to Dr Patrick Quirk, a psychiatrist from Georgetown, Massachusetts, to request an appointment” stating “Many puzzling aspects remain, so it is felt that hypnotism could clarify these.” Dr Quirk did not attempt hypnosis.” Captured” page 64…`”We talked to the hypnotist (Ben Swett) for a long time, and he at first appeared to be interested in hypnotizing us. . “Captured” page 75 “On Saturday morning, December 14, 1963, the hills had an initial consultation with Dr Simon.. Simon told them hypnosis is…” it is the truth as the subject perceives it, and may or may not be consistent with objective reality” Dr Simon also showed how receptive Barney was to hypnotic suggestion with the “little white dog” experiment. Dr Simons hypothesis was that Barney had absorbed Betty’s dreams according to page 83 in “Captured”)))))))))
10.You stated the regression does not match the recall or dreams. Do you mean conscious recall prior to hypnosis? See my article “Dream Transference or Alien Abduction” on the Betty and Barney Hill site at http://kathleenmarden.googlepages.com
(((((We mean the regressions did not match the dream recall)))))
11.You stated that Barney described black pants, shirts and duckbill caps. You must be referring to Barney’s description of the beings he observed through binoculars as he stood in the field in North Lincoln, near Indian Head. He reported to Walter Webb in October 1961, “The figures, according to Barney, were of human form dressed in shiny black uniforms and black caps with peaks or bills on them (Which could be seen when the figures turned their heads). The uniforms were like glossy leather.” Barney consciously recalled a roadblock and figures approaching with an unsteady gait and spindly legs in autumn 1963. Barney told Dr. Simon at the captured site, “They were in dark clothing and they were all dressed alike.” He later described their clothing and appearance in detail to the late artist David Baker. (((((((((So you agree with what was said here? Barney said they were dressed in Black uniforms and wore hats.)))))
12.You said three therapists were involved. Let me elucidate you on this subject. Betty and Barney had a consultation with the therapist at Balpate. That was it. Barney was treated by Dr. Duncan Stevens, a psychiatrist, for stress, bleeding ulcers and high blood pressure. Dr. Stevens referred Barney to Dr. Benjamin Simon because he was an expert in the use of hypnosis to treat psychogenically induced disorders and traumatic amnesia. (((((( According to “Captured” page 61…On March 12, 1962 Betty and Barney wrote to Dr Patrick Quirk, a psychiatrist from Georgetown, Massachusetts, to request an appointment” stating “Many puzzling aspects remain, so it is felt that hypnotism could clarify these.” Dr Quirk did not attempt hypnosis.” Captured” page 64…`”We talked to the hypnotist (Ben Swett) for a long time, and he at first appeared to be interested in hypnotizing us. . “Captured” page 75 “On Saturday morning, December 14, 1963, the hills had an initial consultation with Dr Simon.. Simon told them hypnosis is…” it is the truth as the subject perceives it, and may or may not be consistent with objective reality” Dr Simon also showed how receptive Barney was to hypnotic suggestion with the “little white dog” experiment. Dr Simons hypothesis was that Barney had absorbed Betty’s dreams according to page 83 in “Captured”
12.You stated, “Betty was really into UFOs prior to the encounter.” This is false. (((((((((Taken from “Captured” page 34…, “She (Betty) felt that her sister ,who observed an unconventional craft in the mid-1950s,might be the one person to whom she could tell (her story) without prejudice….As she(Janet) recounted it to those present in the room ,she added that she had once witnessed an unconventional craft……she observed a silent blimp-shaped ,craft hovering over an adjacent field. In amazement, she and the residents of a neighboring house watched as several smaller, disk shaped objects approached the craft from several directions, and entered it. Then, almost instantaneously, the mothership ascended vertically and disappeared from sight. Betty’s sister, your mother, had reported a ufo sighting. There had been several reports of ufo’s in the area. You mean to tell me that as close as the family was, according to you, your mother never talked about what she saw to Betty, they never discussed what your mother might have seen? And if ufo’s were never discussed before the sighting why, in Barney’s hypnosis did he say to himself “Why does Betty want me to think this is a ufo~!”” Why did he assume she would go right to the conclusion that it was a ufo and not something, say, military, there was a cold war going on? It seems obvious that ufos had been discussed and Barney knew Betty would think “UFO” ))))))) 13.You said the Hills said they spoke English with an accent. Barney did not mention an accent, but Betty said that they spoke to her in English with an accent in her dreams and under hypnosis. (((You are agreeing with our statement here)))) However, both reported to Dr. Simon that they did not observe any mouth movement when the aliens communicated with them. They understood them in English. (((((((If the aliens didn’t speak and used telepathy, why would Betty hear an accent? Telepathy is understood in the language you use)))))))) When the aliens communicated among themselves, they spoke in a humming or mumbling language and the membrane inside their mouths fluttered. ((((Thought you just said the Hills never saw the alien’s mouth move? How did they notice the membrane inside their mouth fluttering?))))) 14.You stated that Betty didn’t draw the star map until ten years after the case and it was redone three times. This is incorrect. Betty drew the star map as the result of a posthypnotic suggestion in early 1964. It was not redone three times. Marjorie Fish visited Betty at her home on August 4, 1969, but had been working on the map prior that. She finally found a match in 1972. ((((((While I hold Stanton Friedman in the highest regard, I also think Carl Sagan may have made a good point when he said….”Captured” page 252. “These particular stars are selected from a large catalog. Our vantage point in space is also selected to make the best possible fit. If you can pick and choose from a large number of stars viewed from any vantage point in space you want, you can always find something resembling the pattern you are looking for.”)))))))
Kathy, You mention several things in “Captured” On page 71 “Family members were attempting to support Barney by stimulating his memory during this period.((1963after he had become ill) Kathy and her parents were counseling Barney by mentally walking him through a moment by moment recollection of his journey ……on page 124 “weeks before Betty’s death Kathy attempted to extract the true nature of the event (Betty’s medical exam) from her. Using a cognitive interview technique, she facilitated Betty’s moment by moment recollection” You mention in this rebuttal that Betty often overlaid hypnotic memories with dream memories. You mentioned hypnotic thinking, “latter” hypnotic regressions changing the facts, stimulated thinking, cognitive interview techniques ,years passing before the first regression, involvement with scientist, with ufologist, can you really believe that none of this might have changed the story in some way. That perhaps the slant on alien abduction may have colored what might have happened. After all this, military , MILAB abduction, can not seem so far fetched, even to you. We did notice that you chose to rebut only certain things mentioned in Joe’s speech at the XConference. You completely ignored the continuing presence of the military (air force) in Betty and Barney’s life. May I ask why? Do you truly believe the strange things, their house being entered ,the ice,, the earrings were due to aliens?
((((We did not include anything from “The Interrupted Journey” or from the regression tapes available thru the internet in answering your rebuttal, only what we found in your book “Captured” We would strongly advise anyone interested in this story to look at both of these sources We did use “The Interrupted Journey” in our research since1966 it has been considered the story of Betty and Barney Hill. .)))))